Saturday, 1 October 2011

Hitler-Forgiving Cult Self-Censor

Ivan Rauscher

The document at http://wiki.destonians.com/Desteni_Criticism is presented as answering questions put by a journalist to Bernard Poolman. The name of the publication for which the journalist is supposed to be writing is not given. The answers are apparently not from Mr. Poolman.
It is another example of how Desteni skirt the issues, misrepresent the facts and avoid directly addressing pertinent questions. ‘Desteni Criticism’ is introduced as putting to rest any ‘hate, defamation, gossip, trolls’ and states: 

Desteni is not a cult and it is not dangerous. All such claims are located on and propagated through various online bash-boards, by people with anonymous names, without providing any evidence to these claims.

The evidence showing Desteni is a cult and potentially or actually dangerous is desteni.co.za and affiliated websites. What other evidence could there be?  

Are there any substantial claims made by anyone outside Desteni to the effect that the group is not a cult? No, but Desteni claim they deal  

with a highly controversial topics like universal equality, new economic system, current enslavement of humans through and to the money system, debunking spirituality and religions. Some people react to these topics and are not able to discuss them on equal terms with other more civilized beings. 

These topics are commonly discussed and debated every day of the week on an equal basis by all kinds of civilised people everywhere.  

Desteni regard non-Destonians as psychopaths, scapegoats for all the problems in the world. They refuse to discuss things on equal terms. Instead they block, ban and issue false DMCAs. In so-called anti-hate videos they dutifully recite the same statements for which they have been criticised in the first place, while disallowing responses. 

Recently they've taken to defending themselves with pointless insults; hatchet job character assassination attempts. 

They make bizarre, illogical assertions. For example, that I am a ‘neoliberal’ and ‘fascist’ channelling my ‘inner Hitler’, and exit counsellor, Rick Ross is a cult. They say that conspiracy theory critic, Muertos and members of the Skeptic Project Forum are racists (which implies that Destonians regard themselves as a ‘race’)

These statements: the whole functioning of the participation within Desteni is public and Desteni functions as a hub, as an open-source community are false. 

Open source governance is defined as:


‘a political philosophy which advocates the application of the philosophies of the open-source and open-content movements to democratic principles in order to enable any interested citizen to add to the creation of policy, as with a wiki document.

Destonians only ever repeat information gleaned from the Desteni material, which has been fabricated by Bernard Poolman.
In the (deleted) video entitled ‘Process Support – Living Word & Self-Responsibility’, Poolman said:

‘Desteni's points is what I say, what the portal say, and what I write or what the portal write, or those that is instructed by me. The rest is your own processes, it's not Desteni . . . . If I have written it or it was written as I have requested it or instructed, and yes, I do instruct, that's what I am, I am a life instructor ... It's a very direct dictator point.’

The Desteni answer to the question, Does consumption of Hallucinogenic drugs form part of the Desteni way? is No.


E

Consumption of the psychoactive drug, Ecstasy forms part of the Desteni way of life. It has been recommended for advancing the ‘process’ of Desteni devotees several times by Bernard Poolman and other members of his fan club (albeit mainly in now deleted unlisted YouTube videos but described here).
But no, it is not an hallucinogenic drug.   

Instead of answering the question, I see you have quite a following – and not just South Africans. How many members does Desteni have? by providing an accurate figure, the questioner is referred to desteni.co.za.

They have been up and running since 2007 and have around 100 active members. When their ‘Desteni Income Plan’ (now ‘Desteni I Process’) began in October 2010, the total membership count was no more than around 100 people.  

So, in three years they recruited about 100 people, and after another year of a concerted effort at a recruitment drive providing apparent financial incentives, there are no more or less. This was also after an enthusiastic effort at recruiting using the derided practice of sub4sub on YouTube, a form of spamming they abandoned as useless after a few months.

In response to the question, Apparently you are quite a fan of Hitler? Why? Q: Is Desteni Neo-Nazi? the reply is:

There are people that misunderstood a series of articles published on the Desteni website where a perspective and an attempt for research into how a person such as Adolf Hilter thinks and perceives his world was made. According to this feedback we removed these articles and we might re-publish them later if we’re satisfied that we’re conveying the research in such a way that it is not misunderstood.

We strongly distance ourselves from any form of racial discrimination, anti-semitism, nazi ideologies, neo-nazi movements or any other similar movement or ideology.

Disregarding the fact that they are referring to Hitler as if he were still alive, which seems rather odd, the ‘series of articles’ they have apparently chosen to self-censor are chapters from a so-called ‘book’ entitled ‘I Am Hitler’ written by Bernard Poolman. It was ‘shortly available’ to order in 2007 and until very recently, portions of the ‘book’ had been featured on all versions of the Desteni website. It is a story narrated by Poolman’s version of Adolf Hitler and archived here

Sunette Spies ‘channelled’ or later, ‘portalled’ Hitler in several videos (as well as Franklin D. Roosevelt, Idi Amin, Freddie Mercury, and toilet paper). In some of these, and in the story, Hitler is given an alternative name by Poolman: ‘MyKey’. 

Those persons who filed complaints with YouTube against Desteni informed editors of this blog that the DesteniProductions and BernardPoolman channels were terminated specifically because of what was deemed pro-Hitler as well as commercially deceptive content.  

In his video, The Love of Jesus and Hitler Changed the World Poolman said: 

‘What was the point of Hitler's actions was he acted in love and out of love his action was out of love for his people’. 

In (the deleted video) ‘The Jew in Every Man is a Zionist’ he said: 

‘Hitler had it. He showed, and have a look, Hitler’s fight was not with the Jews as persons, but with the “Jewish nature of Man” as a “Jewish Principle”, that is not here, Best for Man, but it here “best for greed”, at a personal level. So, we have to take out the “Jewish Principle of Profit” from the Human Nature.
 
He has made numerous other similar such statements. Desteni members have also made anti-Semitic statements and recommended Nazi policies as applicable to ‘equal money system’

There has been no misunderstanding. These are the facts. They have been recorded in more detail at the Cult Education Forum.

Desteni members repeatedly use the catch phrase, ‘unworthy of life’ to refer to anyone who does not support Desteni and/or in relation to their own perceived inadequacies in living up to the demands of their ‘process’. This is a variation of the term, ‘Lebensunwertes Leben’ or ‘life unworthy of life’ used by the Nazis to refer to people they believed had no right to live.

As was pointed out at Muertos’s Blog, Desteni material makes associations with anti-Semitic conspiracy theories such as “reptilians,” which are sci-fi stand-ins for Jews. The group recruits on the basis of pandering to such conspiracy theories.

Since 2007, Desteni have been promoting the idea that because Bernard Poolman helped Adolf Hitler to forgive himself, now everyone can practice ‘self-forgiveness’. This verges on support for Nazism simply because it suggests that Hitler should be excused, is worthy of redemption and an example of self-forgiveness.

Even if the historical record showed that Hitler had said he had forgiven himself, contrary to what Desteni suggest, there would still be no reason to accept it as genuine or having any great meaning for the future of the world or human behaviour. It would have no relevance to anyone else’s need for forgiveness, self-forgiveness or equality.

Destonians have closely aligned themselves with anti-semitism, nazi ideologies, neo-nazi movements or any other similar movement or ideology. They have done nothing to distance themselves other than to self-censor certain offending articles, and clearly this is only because promoting a ‘self-forgiven’ Hitler reflects so poorly upon their public image.

Nonetheless, Desteni still want to exalt Hitler as a misunderstood man who suffered for the sake of others. They are promoting Hitler as the key to forgiveness just as Christians promote Christ as the key to salvation. In the recent video, Hitler's Selbstvergebung - und eine Tote Katze, Desteni devotee, Bastian Neumann suggests that people should forgive Hitler because if they don't then, inexplicably, they can't forgive anyone, not even themselves. 

In civilised life, in personal or professional relations between equals, anyone who goes about saying that we can all now forgive each other and ourselves because Adolf Hitler told some guy in South Africa who met him in ‘the afterlife’ that he has forgiven himself, and because Hitler has spoken through an ‘interdimensional portal’, will naturally be regarded as excusing Nazism, belonging to some weird Hitler-worshipping cult and possibly being so mentally unstable they are a danger to themselves and others

But for the Destonians, Bernard Poolman’s deranged fantasies are reliable research in ‘the dimensions’ proving that Adolf Hitler has shown humanity that we can all be ‘self-forgiven’ and ‘thus’ create heaven on earth with equal money system, and anyone who can't see that it's best for all is unworthy of life


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26 comments:

Anonymous said...

If you look at this page http://wiki.destonians.com/index.php?title=Desteni_Criticism&action=history&year=&month=-1 you can see that Robert and Blaz are the only contributors to this wiki. Also, you can compare how they revised the document. Fun with word-play for them.

Hmmm, so not quite answered by Bernie himself :)...I suppose for it's hard for him to go on the record. I'd love to see Bernie actually be interviewed by a NON-Desteni person. Wonder how well he'd do?

Anonymous said...

After reading this post I went to check out how they promote their MLM scheme and noticed that if you join and later decide you can't be in it for a while (say b/c you don't have money to pay them) then you are forced to start the training process all over again! Then I wondered how many members have been banned and then later "allowed" back in with the condition of starting their stupid brainwashing course from the start since it didn't stick the first time. What does that say about them...

Anonymous said...

At the begining they seems to be harmless.
But if we look better, they are lying.
I saw at Desteni cult web page of facebook, somone says:

people present choices, whats best for life T'[h] ELLs us what to do

Lol, do what? preaching lies? beautiful divergence of trying to be nice for no reason.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Equal-Money-System-is-a-ScamCult/230195980360605

;)

Anonymous said...

Interdimentional portal, another stupid and crazy psico maniac for asylum.
If the police know about this things, I bet on how they go to the madhouse. (Asylum)

Anonymous said...

Probably you're right.
I just cannot help finding Sunette very talented and full of sympathy and humanity.
Do you think she has been completely manipulated by Poolman? Anyway, she still looks
very smart AND is so cute. Maybe she is a little mad. But I cannot imagine her being a nazi or a kind of criminal abusing people. I think their doctrine, on which I've only heard some videos, is a kind of Buddhism in its core, and does contain something else than plain bullshit. But I also appreciate your rational "demolition". Only, I can't help finding Sunette a nice, talented and intelligent person in some way, maybe attracted to Poolman and "the sect" because of her problems.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous Jan 23- Yes, this group takes things from various spiritual books and then manipulates its message with Sunette as the messenger.

You say she is full of sympathy- sure that may be her subjective experience but compassion while being gullible is not a good combination. Yes, she may be attracted to the group because of her problems (just like everyone else who joins)- however this does not make her intelligent. She is a victim. Not being able to distinguish between hogwash theories to attract members and not having the ability to contradict doctrine is not talent- she is being manipulated.

I'm sure she has suffered a lot of loss in her life, but that only makes it easier for Poolman to take advantage of her. If you think a girl who is so out of it, speaks like she's having some kind of psychotic break is "cute" then you and members of Desteni may be attracted to people who have mental breaks/issues that are manifesting in unhealthy ways.

Saying she is a "little mad" is an understatement and minimizing the obvious. She's victimized and like some victims of abuse, they go on to abuse others. It's not right and not something to idolize. She's a tool for Poolman and sadly the most manipulated of the group.

Jan

destenicult said...

Sunette Spies went through the trauma of the death of her mother when she got together with Poolman. She was employed as the poster girl for Poolman's so-called "Desteni" on YouTube in 2007 as a deliberate strategy. Poolman trained her thoroughly from at least age 21. This has already been documented.

The Desteni material is constructed out of incoherent misrepresentations of occult or spiritual philosophies, including elements of Buddhism. Most of its appeal is by deception. For example, on the surface it could seem it's about "equality". It denies equal rights, diversity and individuality.

Poolman's hero-worship of Hitler is well-documented. See the Cult Education Forum.

All members of Desteni take an implicitly neo-Nazi stance, including Spies. She "portalled" Hitler, or as Poolman likes to call him, 'MyKey'. She is pathetic, dull and boring, as are ALL Destonians. None of them have humanity. The Desteni doctrine is as Poolman says: "the human being should be eradicated".

Want evidence? Don't take our word for it. It's all on desteni.org.

Anonymous said...

Well, I'd say they all started with good intensions and as their personality got stripped away, they become narcissistic and psychotic like their leader. None of them really make a difference in the world by just focusing on themselves and not helping in any causes what so ever (but selling their own crap). They are all loopy...it's just that in this day and age, it's easier for the crazies to get together with the internet. Being glued to a screen and spamming seems to be their way of life.

destenicult said...

No doubt many of the Destonians are well-meaning, intelligent or decent people, but any talents they have are being wasted on pointless activity that in the long run can only be psychologically damaging.

The fact that they think 'equal money system' is a reasonable political idea, and they fail to understand it is just an online spam-scam shows how deluded they are, but some of them will eventually realise they have been conned.

Anonymous said...

Thanks for your replies to my post.
I think what I meant when I said Sunette seems
to me talented and intelligent is something like... : there are also "insane" people who still are much more intelligent, sensible and interesting than most "normal" or mentally healthy ones. I must admit, I'm quite tolerant about "crazyness" and critical about dull normality - there are SOOO many normal idiots in my opinion, and they don't experience major problems just because they are well adapted to dull normality and what the mainstream expects them to think and to do. SO, I tend to some sympathy for "psychopaths" who intelligently diverge from the norm. BUT, I have to admit, while in her first videos Sunette appeared full of vitality in her own way, and surely a talented actress (very good at cathching the charachter of Wittgenstein with body posture for example - so was my impression at least), in the more recent stuff she's actually become more and more dull, autoreferential and "gray". This may be an effect of narcisstic closure in the repetition of sectarian docrines whithout any critical stance towards them. Yes, there are intelligent people with more problems than the average, and intelligent people (I've heard Sunette's mother was a talented poet in afrikaans) who can nevertheless get fully manipulated (and the young age helps of course... but think of Opus Dei, they are also good at manipulation young talented people to get them in their organization), not seeing the blind spot about their thoughts. But this is sad for Sunette and other members of the "sect". Of course I would never "follow" them, I'm to attached to critical thought and very much in favour of diversity, difference and freedom to get trapped by sects preaching equality through the abolishment of individuality. But I'm still "insane" enough to feel some sympathy for a person like Sunette. Wishing her and the others a recovery from sectarianism and the best possible in their life and spiritual research beyond Poolman.

destenicult said...

The Desteni group and the Destonians might seem "crazy" and different, but they display a very dull kind of conformism. Yes, unconventional and apparently "insane" people are often far more interesting than other seemingly "normal" mainstream people, but usually because they have some special insight to offer. Desteni is of interest as a social phenomenon partly because it is so bizarre and stupid, and it is astonishing anyone could fall for such an obvious scam. But nothing about it is intelligent and it can't be said that anyone in Desteni is an inspired or eccentric visionary or maverick genius.

They are rather more slightly disturbed misfits colluding in the deception and manipulation of other naive, deluded and disturbed people. They rant gobbledegook or give very boring, repetitive talks that are basically nonsense. As can be seen at the Introduction to Desteni forum, many of these people have already have been conditioned by spurious New Age beliefs and pointless and absurd conspiracy theories, and a significant number of them are in receipt of treatment for mental health problems.

Some of Sunette Spies' videos have minor entertainment value as something to laugh at, but that's about it. Ultimately, the joke's on her and the Destonians. Her seeming impersonations of famous people were in no way convincing. She made practically no effort to give a decent impersonation and there was no suggestion she was even trying to. There are plenty other bogus "channelers" who do a much better job than Sunette Spies, and that's one reason why they are far more successful.

Anonymous said...

Never said Poolman or Sunette or anyone in Desteni is a "genius". I just meant, some of them still look more intelligent than a lot of people who are NOT "disturbed". That's it.

Anonymous said...

Moreover: while the "portal", the "dimensions" and most gobbledegook they talk are with full evidence plain bullshit, there seems to be a core which is in part respectable, namely a Hindu or Buddhist core (not Christian , of course), which is surely very common in the new age contest. Being maybe deceptive itself, this core can still result in some way attractive. Of course, then it would be MUCH better to read the Vedas or Upanishads or practice yoga or at least read Schopenhauer, instead of listening to their quite gray lessons full of gobbledegook.

destenicult said...

Was only riffing on the general theme, not suggesting anyone ever said anyone in Desteni was a genius. Though "talented" is in a similar category.

Totally agree: read the original Buddhist or Hindu texts, not Poolman by way of Rajneesh, but even better Schopenhauer.

Anonymous said...

I agree these people need to not read Poolman's junk, for sure. Problem is most of them want a quick fix. Something they could memorize, spew back and get some relief by having a social network (as twisted as it is). Most of the members feel like outsiders (whether it is caused by mental illness or social awkwardness). Poolman and the gang give them some sense of human connection (mostly virtual for those who never meet up with them personally) in exchange for their compliance. Sure one can argue they are interesting in some strange way but surely it is naive to confuse it with intelligence. One thing I've been noticing lately is many seem to meet the criteria for bi-polar, borderline, and narcissistic disorders as well as other relational problems. They are clearly not "normal" and if that's interesting to watch- well, it's like watching a train that heading straight for a wall. It will not end well for these guys. They are beyond eccentric.

Jan

destenicult said...

Not only do they meet the criteria, a significant number of them at the Desteni forum refer to the fact that they have been officially diagnosed as schizophrenic, bi-polar etc. Several of them also mention previous or present involvement in various types of crime and drug addiction. Of course many intelligent people are bi-polar or into crime or whatever, but far less end up joining any bizarre online cult like Desteni. It's one reason it's potentially dangerous.

Certainly their payment for working to promote Poolman's scam is that they are provided with a ready-made social network and a method for creating an internet presence, none of which requires any real initiative but is just a matter of following instructions.

Anonymous said...

Wow, it would be interesting to find out how many of the core members have disclosed information about disorders. Bernie could get into real trouble for "coaching" or offering services that is suppose to ameliorate these problems. I say he needs to be reported to the local health and mental health licensing boards (in all countries where members are) so warning can be put up for family and friends. Of course in South Africa that could come with some serious consequences too. Just mentioning psychology and some ready made solution qualifies for practicing without a license in most places. Oh, how the illegality just keeps on coming :D

Anonymous said...

I'm the one with a "faible" or weakness for Sunette. I can add a couple of things...
I read something more about the "cult", and it seems to me more and more "scary" (to use a common word which I usually rather dislike). About Poolman being for "free love", well, I wouldn't find this personally so bad, nor I find that bad that people at the farm have maybe "threesome" sex, or that Poolman, and Sunette maybe have sex with another woman. Actually, Sunette could seem in part lesbian or bisexual. I personally wouldn't find this a bad thing, maybe it has been even easier for her to live her bisexuality in the sect rather than outside the sect. I was actually attracted to her in part because of her "queerness". Ok, but from here to satanism... The more I know about Poolman, the more I understand the insanity of this sect. (I find also their "reverence" toward bugs particularly disgusting! LOL). I still sympathize with Sunette in the sense that I wish her and all the others to find a way out of the construction of that nazi-fool.

Anonymous said...

One thing to understand about Poolman is not that he's a sexual liberal or accepting- but rather he likes to CONTROL how his followers have sex and whom they have it with. And of course, he benefits by getting his kicks with his members too. Sunette is just under that spell he put her on. A victim who probably has no where to escape to. I think a lot of the followers like to point to what may seem rather harmless things but hide or dismiss all the obvious insane stuff he Bernie promotes. Some may even rationalize things in order to feel like fools.

Jan

destenicult said...

@Jan Yes, the "equal money system" is itself a way of making Desteni look like a socially aware project for the betterment of humankind, when it is really all about that insane rubbish to do with "interdimensional" contact with dead people, demon possession, humans being evil, stopping the mind, "mind consciousness systems" etc.

As long as Destonians can blab on about "equality", then there is the chance they can detract from their real interests while luring some sucker or other in to their weird and ultimately pointless belief system.

Sex is a major part of the way it all functions. A "Destonian" can seemingly get into an "agreement" with another Destonian when without that assumed identity they might not find it so easy to establish such relationships.

Anonymous said...

@destenicult- Wow, another really good point I completely forgot about! I didn't really think about sex as a token that Bernard uses to get members. However, I still think he is controlling how and with whom people have sex. But, indeed, give people who otherwise would have little to no chance a way to have sex is a quick solution to a bigger problem (their obvious inability to relate appropriately to others- due in part to the wacky Desteni teachings). So rather than completely fight the evolutionary drive, Bernard puts in some controls so that members are discouraged for building sexual relationships with non-Destonians but get it all (or become dependent) on the cult providing even that for them. Of course it comes with some crazy shit attached. But for a socially outcasted person/those with dwindling chances of getting- sex this suddenly becomes an option.

Thanks so much for making all these great connections. I hope Destonians are actually reading this and start wondering about the workings of their group. It's plainly obvious to an outsider.

-Jan

Anonymous said...

But what if their actual point was: abolishment of patriarchy - which in fact includes abolishment of capitalism, private property, patriarcal (=more or less all present) religions; and the establishment of a new kind of "non-patriarcal society"? Private property and patriarchy (property of women and establishment of patriarchal gender roles, hierarchy and sexual rules) are probably quite strongly related. Think about "don't desire what belongs to others", first of all women treated basicly as private property - which is the history of mankind in the last millennia, but has probably not always been so, before patriarchy. Well, probably such thoughts, as weird as they can sound to present common sense, could be already too rational for them. But I see at least some possible resemblance with the "ghost" of matriarchy, maybe speaking from some thousand years ago...

Anonymous said...

@ Anonymous feb 5- Doubt that is the true purpose. Of course this cult could say they have the "answer" to a HUGE issue like patriarchy. But that's just another way to keep their members unfocused on the real thing (them taking away their time, money and ability to interact with most of society). Cults usually provide simple solutions with absurd rules in the name of solving some cosmically big issues. Desteni is filled with examples. Moreover, with Bernard as head of the group doubt you could ever argue it doesn't fit into a patriarchy itself. Again, this feels like another Desteni ploy trying to move away from the real issues pointed in the last couple of comments.

Anonymous said...

i dont understant why some desteni members only talk about equal money sistem and they are atheist also materialist so whats the point in talking about gods, mitology, aliens, etc etc just to hook up people that wasnt searching things like, this ones talk very rational just about a better sistem and change the capitalism that is good for me but why the talk about that shit of methaphorical and nonsense speaking of desteni ?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous Feb 5-How does Bernard then fit in the Patriarchy? He seems to give women loads of advice as to how they should conduct themselves?

destenicult said...

@ Anonymous 7 February:

"... Moreover, with Bernard as head of the group doubt you could ever argue it doesn't fit into a patriarchy itself. Again, this feels like another Desteni ploy trying to move away from the real issues pointed in the last couple of comments."

Yes, it's rather odd how this ploy is used right after those previous comments when they pertain to reports that suggest sex between "Destonians" is often formally arranged by the self-appointed patriarch of Desteni and his maidservants.

http://www.sondag.co.za/artikels/Nuus/Cultpa-en-sy-2-wywe

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